(I know, kind of a heavy change of subject, but what can you do?)
11 Sep 2010
I woke up at 11:00 AM and took 1 piracetam and choline, and again at 7:00 PM. This is going to be another short day, since there's a parade and an "art fair" and a reception tomorrow and I have to get up much earlier than usual. I'm already pretty tired, but hopefully that will help me sleep tonight. All in all, I'm still having a great time with everyone and I wish my new family didn't have to leave so soon.
I've noticed that I must have some peculiar trait whereby suicidal people are mysteriously drawn to me. This isn't something new, it's been going on for a while now. For some reason, people who are thinking about suicide are compelled to talk to me about it. These aren't just close friends and acquaintances, but also people who barely know me, and even total strangers. They just seek me out.
I should note that all of this has taken place online, not in person. Out of the blue, someone will send me a message about how they feel like killing themselves. Sometimes this continues over the course of weeks or months, even years. Every time this happens, I'm essentially obligated to immediately drop everything and listen to them for as long as necessary, and do whatever I can to try and talk them out of it. As far as I know, I've had a 100% success rate in that none of them are dead yet, but I wouldn't attribute that to any real skill on my part because I don't think I'm very good at handling this.
Dealing with this kind of thing can actually be pretty stressful. There are people who volunteer for the job, like suicide hotline workers and the users on reddit's SuicideWatch, but I'm not one of those people. I'm neither trained in this field nor is it something I would choose to do. Instead, I'm more or less spontaneously given this task out of nowhere. All of a sudden, I now have the responsibility of convincing someone (who I may not even know) that life is worth living, when they're already doubting this. Sometimes I don't really have a good answer for them, and sometimes I'm not even sure there is one, besides simply wanting to live. But that isn't enough, because right now, somebody wants to be dead and it's up to me to persuade them that they shouldn't be.
This has happened so many times that it's gotten to the point where, while I recognize that this is a serious situation that I have to help them with promptly, there's also an undercurrent of "oh fucking hell, not this again" when someone tells me they don't want to be alive anymore. I know that it's going to involve spending hours and hours going back and forth and around in circles with someone who hardly ever sees any value in the reasons I offer, knowing all the while that I could be the difference between this person living or dying, and I'm probably not doing the best that I could. I don't like that feeling. It seems very draining and this isn't the kind of mortal issue that I'm normally accustomed to dealing with.
I've tried to figure out better ways of handling this. I've sometimes directed them to various suicide hotlines or resources, which they're almost invariably uninterested in. I suppose if they were open to this, then they would have just done that first. Instead, they want to talk to me. I've thought of more direct ways to avert this, like making a commitment to myself: "If someone tells me they're considering suicide, I will ignore them." Or posting a public notice: "If you're feeling suicidal, don't talk to me." The problem is that this sounds completely awful, and I probably wouldn't be able to commit to it anyway.
This situation seems to parallel a certain issue in utilitarianism known as the "utility monster". It's a scenario describing an entity that derives greater satisfaction than the rest of us would from the same amount of resources, which poses the difficult question of whether resources should then be entirely devoted to the utility monster (to the neglect of everyone else) in order to maximize utility. Here, I'm faced with a similar problem: Should my personal resources go towards maintaining a basic level of contentedness and satisfaction for myself, or convincing someone to live rather than die at the expense of my own time and enjoyment?
Though the utility monster is often considered a problem for utilitarian theories, the answer does seem pretty obvious: it would be better for someone to continue living than for me to be relatively free of stress for a period of time, and if the same resources could be used for either of these, they should be directed to the former rather than the latter. It seems that this view is supported by the common perspective on how to handle suicidal people. An effort is made to provide them with the resources necessary to keep them from killing themselves, even when this is expensive, time-consuming and stressful, because it's considered more important that they not die.
This appears to be a case where we just have to suck it up and act ethically, rather than trying to reason our way out of doing what's right because it's uncomfortable and inconvenient. And so, for the foreseeable future, I expect that I'll be doing what I've always done: trying to convince people not to kill themselves, however long it takes, because they want me to help them. I'm not sure I see any other defensible answer here.
How do you handle suicidal people?
-Zinnia Jones, reluctant counselor
I suspect that they see in you something that they want to find in themselves. You seem fearless. Suicide is often about fear.
It's not really fair for them to drag you into it, but suicide is a selfish thing. You're a prince for being there for them. However, you have to realize that it's not up to you to keep them from killing themselves. You're keeping a tally is only going to destroy you when someone does go off and have a successful attempt. When that happens, and this is very important, there was nothing you could have said or done to change it.
They have an erroneous belief. The truly suicidal person BELIEVES that they will be better off dead, and nothing that you, or anyone else says will keep them from doing it. However, most of those who are coming to you probably aren't truly suicidal. They might have suicidal ideation, but they see you as a light of hope to defeat their hopelessness. If you can be this brave, they can too. They just need you to reassure them that they, too, can have the courage to live honestly.
You're more of a beacon than you know, ZJ. Your wit and grace inspire me and a lot of other people, too. Unfortunately, that talent and fame is going to come with some social responsibility. Don't let yourself get in over your head though. If you have an emergency, don't hesitate to get the cops involved.
Hey, I commented on this on your facebook, but I thought i'd post here too. Going through such things is quite hard, I can understand as I have people coming to me for advice beyond myself and assistance in obtaining their will to live again. I personally have had both sides of that fence, and from your side I can easily say that the economic phrase 'cost profit' is easily applicable here. The cost of a mere few hours (which has a large deviation I understand) is a petty cost, for the extreme profit of life is a great profit! I understand that collectivly they are exhausting you as a limited resource, but alone each of them is merely reaching out. Imagine how the world would be today if a person like Alan Turing had turned to someone like you and was given the advice that he needed. Now I've also been on the other side of the fence, sadly it was whilst I was in a christian background (ages 10-17). So I had noone to turn to about personal matters such as these, so in turn, to my own astonishment, I had to conjur up a theory as to why I can't. And only a month ago did I realise how intelligent my arguement was, I told myself that suicide is a sin, and sins lead you to hell, I created my own version of Pascall's wagor. From there I hadn't risked furthering my actions. My point here ZJ is that there are a lot of people on both sides of this arguement with all sorts of reasons and backgrounds, the key is, whenever the opportunity arises, we should all grasp it and consider it an honor. And if your examples weren't hyperbole's, I'd reccommend making a flow diagram or a prescript that you can use to speed the process up.
Please feel free to email me ZJ
With love, care, and respect.
Andre McEwen
Hey ZJ,
I have a good friend who has attempted suicide twice in this last year. He also abuses pills, which complicates the situation. I've had several long talks with him about it, both in and out of the hospital, but honestly, he's not very receptive. I think my arguments against it are very good, and I was once (more than once actually) suicidal myself, so I would think I'm coming more or less from a place of understanding, but I really don't think I'm getting across to him. A 22 year old guy on my block just killed himself one month ago. We grew up together, and my family used to baby-sit him. It was a total shock. I guess I also feel like I don't know how to handle suicidal people. It all boils down to wanting to live, and it's hard to get there if you're just not.
If you don't mind my asking, why do you take those pills everyday? You always mention it in your blogs.
~Kristen
I am conducting a non-rigorous and unscientific experiment. See: http://zinniajones.com/blog/2010/08/zinnia-on-drugs-a-nootropics-experiment/
How to handle suicidal people? I do not know the answer to that but for a while I had thoughts of suicide and I talked myself out of it, I wanted to "hang" around just to see what I would have missed, well it worked for me! several years ago a friend talked to me about wanting to die. I talked to him for a while to get him to change his mind but I failed, he was later killed in a motorcycle accident! I always felt bad about that! I am glad that you are more successful than I was. Be kind to yourself and be thankful for experiencing helping others in their time of need. You are a good person ZJ, your time for personal enjoyment will happen! lol
I never knew you got email's like what you've described.I wish you would oneday do a video about the type's of email you recieve,using charts and graphs would be best to describe it.
If someone contacts you and is telling you they want to off themselves they could have a sick sense of humor or be telling the truth.It would be best to always take them seriously.Tell them just don't do it,they should never hurt anyone or themselves,ask them a few questions,do they have family that would miss them?Do they have any kids or pets that depend on them?What would happen to all of them if this person was no longer around?
If they say there're in pain,life isn't fair,no one loves them,tell them to hang in there a little bit longer,life is like a movie,don't give up on it because it's gets boring in the middle,the ending may be totally diffrent and worth the wait to see.If they insist on offing themselves,they won't listen to reason,they act like total drama queens (no pun intended),tell them to call 911,they can better help you than I can.Then block their emails,I know this sounds cruel and harsh,but some of these are people called "negative energy vampires",I heard about this on the coast to coast radio show (show about ufos,conspiracy theories,bigfoot sightings,etc.),they once described these people that drain the positive energy of people like blood some do so without being aware of it - half an hour with them leaves us feeling oddly exhausted.Do a google search on negative energy vampires.I hope this helps Zinnina.
"Should my personal resources go towards maintaining a basic level of contentedness and satisfaction for myself, or convincing someone to live rather than die at the expense of my own time and enjoyment?"
You left one part of the (utilitarian)equation out here, the fact that for you both possible decisions come with an negative outcome
-your expense of time and enjoyment(what you already mentioned), when you help
-the possible greater negative outcome for you due to the guilt if that person kills himself and you didn´t do anything
so it remains reasonable within the framework of utilitarianism to help in such a situation (even if you are ignoring the side of the suicidal person)
as for how I deal in such situations(being approached by someone suicidal) well I gladly was never in such a situation but transferring my experience with people who generally tell me about their problems(which happen relatively often): the best course of actions seems to be, giving them a neutral as possible analysis of their situation, because they have the tendency to shut down(ignore arguments) if they suspect you are trying to hard to just cheer them up(because the interpret this kind of arguing with a given premise(in your case that they shouldn´t kill themselves) as lying to them).
But again this is just an (by me) untested hypothesis (plus I have never been on "their side of the fence" ie the mere thought of committing suicide has never crossed my mind (not even remotely))
I have, in the past, had to deal with people both of a suicidal attitude and of the depressive attitude that can so easily morph into a suicidal one. Like Zinnia, I don't really seek them out -- they tend to gravitate to me somehow, both online and in real life. I sometimes try to go out of my way to meet them, simply because they're often really interesting people, but for the most part they sort of show up unannounced.
I'll admit right now, I've never known the fear of having to talk someone down when they have a gun in their hand. But what I have known is the desperation leading up to it, the stabbing fear of realizing that I haven't heard recently from someone who I know to be suicidal, the feeling of helplessness talking to someone who doesn't naturally share my innate enjoyment of life and who somehow expects me to give it to them. These conversations are the most draining thing in the world, and it's a very frightening feeling to think that if you can't communicate well enough, then someone might die as a result. And yet, I, for one, would not even think of turning away any of these people I've known, or even trying to push away new acquaintances that seem to fit into the same mold. It's deeply stressful, but some part of me loves the idea that, just maybe, I can make a difference for someone who truly needs it. I don't know if anyone else feels the same way, but at least for me, it feels like one of the best things I could do with my time.
And there are a lot of stimulating conversations that can be had with such people, as well. I find that anybody who is considering suicide necessarily sees the world in a different way than I do, or else the very thought of thought would be thrown out immediately. However, their difference of opinion, unlike those that we're all so used to encountering -- religious nutjobs, for instance -- is not necessarily an absurd one. In fact, there is often a striking level of rationality in what they say. Trying to find the roots of the disagreement is not only fascinating in many cases, I've seen that in some cases, it can actually help. Sometimes a lot. As far as I've seen, the suicidal are almost always driven by very deep emotion, often a profound sadness or frustration. However, before one can identify and try to help with the problem here, there are layers of rationalization that have to be cut through. That's why I find that the conversations I described are so helpful. If done delicately, they can peel back the rationalizations.
Another insight I've had is that these things are never, never without cause. No truly suicidal person is suicidal without a reason. And often, that reason is their surroundings. In almost every case, these people are, or for a great deal of time have been, in close proximity with what they loathe. Speaking from personal experience, a person's environment, both physical and social, can have a staggeringly powerful effect on that person's psyche. And one usually only realizes that these effects aren't permanent upon shifting to a different, more agreeable environment. I've known many people who are geniuses who had spent their whole lives surrounded by, comparatively speaking, fools. And they all had developed incredibly cynical opinions of other people, based purely on the ones around them. Only upon encountering people with whom they can have intellectual conversations without getting strange looks did they realize the invalidity of their opinions. I, myself, have gone through that very transformation. I've had moderate success with the tactic of, if someone is being dragged down by their current surroundings, helping them realize this, and then helping them realize that they don't need to be in that same climate for the rest of their lives. At the very least, this could provide someone with a sense of purpose and direction, if only a temporary one.
For what it's worth, Zinnia, I can think of very few people who I respect more than I respect you. It might seem strange to you that these people gravitate towards you, but it does not seem strange in the slightest to me. An intellect such as yours is a radiant thing, and the glow it puts off draws close all sorts of people. Rational depressives would naturally see you for what you are -- a strikingly intelligent person who might be able to succeed where they have failed, and help them find a reason to continue their life. I, for one, am so glad that you've been willing to try. It's a good thing you're doing.
As a quick disclaimer in case it's not immediately obvious (which I would imagine it would be), I'm not in any way a professional psychologist nor do I have professional training dealing with suicide prevention or counseling the suicidal. All I have is a too-large amount of personal experience with same. That having been said, I have seen most of what I've mentioned work, although every person is different and so it's impossible to say how they will or will not react to any given approach. The one universal piece of advice I can give is that everybody, especially the sorts of people we're dealing with here, needs someone they can talk to, someone who will listen to them. The best thing that any person can possibly do for another is to be that someone.
One thing to add to wootfish's comment.
In many of those cases , it's a matter of trust.
From watching your vids , they know you won't feed them a line of crap , or biblical parables. The know they will hear the honest truth ; whatever their whirlpool of depression is.
With a 100% success rate ---- maybe this could lead you to a new career ? ;-}
Yes, excellent point. When things are this emotionally charged, trust is of paramount importance. Thanks for adding that.
that's a tough place to be. I've been there before, trying to help out someone that was sucidial. and it's not a great place to be as you do what you can to help.
but stick to your guns. you are doing what you feel is right and by trying to help those that seek you out for help, you're hopefully making someones' world a better place.
but something that did help me a little was I got hold a sucide hotline and and had them send me some information so I was better able to deal with the person that was wanting the help.
as you already know, a sucidial person is nerve-wracking. everything from loss of sleep to suddenly worrying about how they're doing takes such a toll on you.
and I have to give you credit. that you can keep going on and doing the other things in your life and still help those that want your help is a testament to your strength of character as a person. cause when it happened to me, I was a wreck. alot of things I did suffered.
and as long as you do right by yourself, that's all that matters in the end.
thanks for your time.
My girlfriend actually has the same issue, suicidal and self-destructive people gravitate to her. She's actually really good at dealing with it. Her email is emoose2@hotmail.com if you're interested in asking her about it. She's really adept at it because she's been through it all before. Perhaps people assume that you've had issues in your life that have pushed you to that point and go to you because of that.
As for the question of the utility monster, I agree with your conclusion that it's the kind of thing where even if it's inconvenient, if it's obviously the ethical thing to do, you should do it. On the plus side, you never have to wonder if you're a good person in that respect or not, you know you're doing all you can to contribute to the betterment of everyone. You've probably saved at least one person's life at some point, keep that in mind. Every moment of happiness that person will have in the rest of their lives is in part because of you.
When you have the kind of online presence that you do, people feel they can relate to you even if they've never met or spoken with you before- sometimes for a person who's contemplating suicide that's a big part of it as talking to someone you know can be difficult if not impossible. And suicidal people tend to be more willing to reach out randomly as well because they're desperate. People feel they know you when they read your blog, watch your youtube, follow you on reddit, etc etc. I'm glad that you have a so far perfect success rate, but I understand how stressful it can be to deal with people with mental illness for extended periods of time- it becomes very emotionally draining especially since the mentally ill tend to not want to listen to what you're saying and need constant reassurance even though you've already given it to them a thousand times. The fact that you still feel an obligation to help these people, despite not knowing them and the draining impact it has on you, is a really great thing.
If the person in question actually suffers from an mental illness I would say its really not a good idea to try to help them on your own. In such cases I would really advise to (re)direct that person to professional help (psychiatrist´s) under any circumstances (I would say the danger to screw up and make it even worse is to great in such cases).
I think they just want attention. I mean srsly, why would someone base their decision to kill themselves or not on a stranger's online advice. Frankly it's kinda stupid. Don't feel bad ignoring it.
Whether or not you want to help them is very much a personal choice based on your own perspective, and there's nothing that says you're required to. Still, I always think that helping someone in a time of need like that is a heroic act.
Although I am no longer suicidal, I spent a couple years of my life continually on the verge, and what eventually made me decide against it was the fact that it was throwing away the possibility for a good life. No matter what happens, I am going to die, whether it's in five minutes or sixty years. But if I continue living for a long time, there's all sorts of things I'll get to experience first. Even if life sucks right now, might as well stick it out and see what happens. If things are sucking bad enough that someone's suicidal, it might help to try and change their life, maybe even drastically if necessary. Quit your job, run away and join the circus, whatever it takes, it's better than suicide, because as long as you're still alive, there's still the possibility that things could go well in the future. There have been countless people who had horrible lives that suddenly turned around. Worst comes to worst, you have a whole long horrible life, but at least you got to experience it, instead of just prematurely disappearing forever.
It may not work for others, but that argument worked for me. And in a few years, my life did take a turn for the better.
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Who cares ? Let em kill themselves.
I'm not sure if I even bother much into helping the person. Last time I really commited to help a suicidal girl, it ended up in a pretty lousy relationship, and now, with the information I have received, I feel that I should have just never met her at all.
There is another person that is suicidal, but I barely know the person too good. I'm not really trying to persuade the person that life is worth living, rather, I'm trying to find out what is the impulse that leads the person to suicidal thought, to question that, so that, maybe the person itself will eventually understand that, although people have made this world quite fucked up, life can still be enjoyed.